Dan:

Bonnie, welcome back for another amazing conversation about all things leadership.

Bonnie:

It is absolutely my pleasure, Dan.

Dan:

We had so much fun last time. We got a really good turnout and feedback. We have people emailing us and LinkedIn-ing us about the provocative conversation about the future of healthcare and nursing and what's broken in it. And I think one of the follow up things that we want to talk about today is there's all this talk about leading into the future and the paradigm shift in nursing and the fractures in the fault line that have been cracked and now, we can't go backwards, but there hasn't been a whole lot of tangible talk about the contemporary healthcare leader. So I want to dig into that with you. But before we go into that, I would just love to hear what you're up to lately.

Bonnie:

Dude, it's crazy. I am doing a bunch of work on virtual nursing. It is a bright spot for us right now in nursing and it seems like the word is out. So lots of organizations are beginning to either identify or evaluate technology or start to put together an inpatient virtual nurse program. It's been exciting as heck and I think that that really is where we're going to be headed here very, very quickly in mass. So I have been doing a ton of work on that and I love it.

Dan:

That's great. Yeah. That was something that, I had a previous organization was a cornerstone of our new care models was, how do you provide virtual support in any service line inside or outside the hospital? And I do think it's time because we can't hire enough. Hiring more staff is not the short-term solution. So how do we augment teams with technology and virtual care? I think that's going to be the immediate path forward.

Bonnie:

Yeah, I think so. I think that the only way we can accommodate for workforce shortages, workforce challenges is going to be to supplement and leverage technology. So it's absolutely where we're going, whether or not we want to, is a different question.

Dan:

Right? Yeah, that's right. I keep getting pushback and it goes back to that contemporary healthcare leader. What is that skillset or mindset about? But I do hear a lot of pushback, well, we have to touch patients and what are we going to do when your family member's in there and they have to talk to a camera and not a person? And what are some of the things that you're seeing nurse leaders balance as they think about virtualizing nursing services but also maintaining that human connection?

Bonnie:

Well, I don't think it's a matter of high touch or high tech. I think it's going to be both of them. And I think as leaders, this is an opportunity for us not to only learn about technology but be involved more in the design and development. And that's the space that I think it's probably hardest for us to get into.

Dan:

It is one of those paradigm shifts. Nursing through the ages has been a in-person event up until recently when we were forced to have to go virtual or even if it wasn't virtual, not be able to go into the room as much or as often as we wanted to because of COVID or name the infectious disease that's rotating through the world at the moment. And that challenges a lot of those assumptions of what nursing is and what the theorists that we back onto, describe nursing as. So it does take, I think, a different skillset to think about how do you provide the same nursing care in a completely new modality?

Bonnie:

Right. Well, and remember, this model requires the boots on the ground nurses that are really the drivers of care and the virtual nurses are really going to be helping by being eyes and ears and also helping with the coordination and the direction of the care. I think the value in the virtual care model is much to do around safety. And when I say that, I mean safety for the nurse in the practice environment and safety for the patient. So I think that's really what's changing is that we are going to be able to do the things that we can't do currently.

Dan:

And I think it's that superpower, right? Because care is too complex. I think that's one of the things is you can't memorize it all. You don't have access to all the information on how to treat different things. And because of the workload and the acuity of all these patients, no one person can manage four or five patients like they used to. And so there has to be some sort of superpower that augments this work, otherwise it's not a safe environment.

Bonnie:

Well, and you say four and five, like that's the norm. We're seeing four, five, six, seven, eight, that's undoable and it's certainly not safe. So as we have this virtual care nurse that literally is helping with admission paperwork, discharge paperwork, med-rec, pre-op teaching, post-op teaching, helping with rapid response documentation, helping the new grads, giving them literal on the spot, virtual nurse consults to help them when they have a question or need some backup advice, it's providing some of that abnormal lab value notification, some of those things that we just literally aren't doing well because there isn't enough time or there aren't workflows that support it. That's really the benefit of the virtual care nurse.

Dan:

So one of those contemporary competencies is the embracing of new ways to deliver nursing care enabled by technology. And I know you and I both have traveled the world talking about that for years now, and finally it's right in front of us. But I think the other piece to that is, it goes onto the workforce. So we know that we're losing nurses hand over fists from all different generations, but specifically as the baby boomers age out of being able to provide direct patient care just because of physical demands and the work that's required to do it, virtual nursing provides a way to retain a workforce. And one of our organizations, we saw that. Nurses would leave the bedside and go to be in these virtual roles and still add their brain trust to the organization and not just lose it like many organizations are doing.

Bonnie:

Absolutely. I think Dan, this is really going to allow us to bring nurses back that have retired or left because the workload was extremely demanding, physically demanding. In many cases, even nurses that have been injured in the past or have back injuries now, they may really be the ones that help us to stand up these virtual nursing command centers, right? Because we're using evidence-based practice, we're developing protocols, processes, practice guidelines that are all appropriate to how we as nurses think and practice. So this is what we do. The only thing that's different is the modality, how we deliver it.

Dan:

Yeah. And so on that vein of turnover, obviously, we talked about virtual nursing as one way to retain nurses into the system, but what else are you seeing out there beyond the virtual stuff? How is nurse turnover as you work with these organizations? Are they still really struggling or has there been some stabilization of the workforce in cases?

Bonnie:

I would like to tell you there has been stabilization. I am not sure that's sustained. So over the summer and the fall months, I did get a sense the organizations that I'm in, it felt as though they were taking a little bit of a sigh of relief, if you will, because staffing has sort of stabilized. Now that we're heading back into deep fall into winter, what I'm hearing is that there are shortages again because they're starting to see some of those flu patients, some of those older pneumonia patients and the capacity issues are starting to really feel it, right? They're starting to burst at the seams a little bit and there's not a deep bench. So in lieu of that, technology is really going to be one of the ways to support that. The other thing that I think we're going to have to figure out how to deal with is really getting good at treating patients in the appropriate setting, whether it be at home or in the hospital, but figuring out where's the best place. Because clearly, there aren't enough beds that just pop everybody into the hospital.

Dan:

Yeah, agreed. It's that new settings of care. Again, back into the technology enabled or virtual space as well. How do you get nurses into places where they should have been all the time but just haven't? And then are you hearing from nurses, nurse leaders, are they still leaving because of burnout and staffing issues or is there another driver at the moment? I mean with the country on the verge of recession and labor markets being a little awkward at the moment across the world, are the drivers that drove nurses out immediately post COVID, still some of the ones that you're seeing?

Bonnie:

I don't know that the drivers have changed significantly. I think certainly what has simmered down quite a bit is that immediate acute COVID world. However, what is still in place or some of the issues that have plagued us forever in nursing, but were exacerbated by COVID and that's stuff like the bullying, the incivility, the workplace culture. And I think we've all seen a horrible ratcheting up of violence in the workplace. So I had a conversation with a young nurse in an organization just about six weeks ago asking, "How are you doing? How is everything here? How do you feel in the profession, you've been in it for two years. How does that feel to you?" And super bright, happy, energetic, young nurse and she just said, "Look, I like what I'm doing right now. I don't think I'm going to stay in it for long because I don't really make enough money to feel on a regular basis that I'm doing a crummy job. I can't get everything done. And then some days I'm just plain old scared about the patients or the families that are up here."

So I think that's what we have to figure out how to deal with, is looking at what are the options we have to ensure that our staff really feels safe in their workplace not tolerating poor behavior of staff and employees and certainly not of patients either. And I think the more we can curate a good team to work together and a safe workplace, I think that has the potential to help us out.

Dan:

So I want to dive into the safety piece in a minute, but what other support pieces do nurses want? I was in a conversation recently with a organization, they were brainstorming some of the ways that they wanted to support nurses and they were like, "Oh, let's give them back massages during their lunch or let's create a room for them to go meditate. And what if we did pizza parties?" And it seemed like the same old stuff again and again. And I was in my snarky mode and I was like, "You're giving them back massage at lunch. They don't even get lunch. They don't even get a chance to take a pee break. Where are these bonuses of Google type of workplace perks going to come into play when the nurses literally don't sit down all day?" What are some of those support pieces that you're hearing nurses do want and that might be feasible for healthcare leaders to consider?

Bonnie:

Yeah. If we only had the answer to that, right? I think that there are some things that come to mind. So there still are organizations that charge employees for parking. That's crazy to me. I hate to be the bubble burster here, but if you're charging your employees for parking, that's just not a good idea. You can go somewhere else tomorrow, make more money, oh, and by the way, probably not pay for parking, which means you just made even more money.

Dan:

I'm paying you the privilege to show up to work. So when I'm late it's because the gate was down.

Bonnie:

Or there weren't enough spots. That seems silly. Years ago, I will tell you that I did have a focus group conversation around, would it make a difference if nurses or healthcare workers, providers, people that work in hospitals, clinics, in places that have access to things like cafeterias, would it make a difference to them if their food, their meals were free as they are or maybe past tense maybe as they were in tech, right? I have a kid, he's worked in tech and literally, they had breakfast, lunch and dinner. It was catered every day, all kinds of coffee bar, ice cream bar, everything, it was free. And he said you could tell the new people because they took advantage of it and ate lots and went down and got several coffee drinks or several ice cream things. But then after a couple days when you realize it isn't going away, you turn off the Forest Gump and you realize it's there.

So when I'm hungry, I eat, my food is there, it's paid for. It's a really nice benefit. I don't know if things like that really would make a difference if we gave people that work in hospitals an allowance if you will, for their meals to help supplement that. Now of course, there are all kinds of detailed challenges with that. What if you don't have a cafeteria? What if it's not open at night? What if you don't eat that? Right? But it feels like there has to be some way to mitigate what would be of interest to people in healthcare. Clearly we can't just continue to pay more money until the sky's the limit. That's not sustainable. But I don't know what the answer is. The answer's not massages, yoga and pizza.

Dan:

Right. It's definitely not yoga and pizza. But I agree. When you look under the covers with the Google type perks, they do that because people stay there longer and work more and they don't have to go home and stress about making dinner because it's there or they get childcare, whatever. And so ultimately, it provides a potential more productive workforce. So I think you're right there. We need to balance some of those pieces, but we got to get real with it. And I think some of those basic pieces of childcare for 12-hour shifts is not easy. You can only drop off at eight and you got to pick off by five or you get charged. Those simple things are things that could really make a difference for a workforce that's already stressed at work. Let's try and take some of that burden off normal life.

Bonnie:

Well, and you're spot on childcare. I was at a workshop that I did over the weekend in Naples, Florida and there is a real issue right now keeping working moms because of the cost, access and availability of childcare. So that has reared its head big time post COVID and is a real issue again for the workforce.

Dan:

And I think one of the other perks, and it shouldn't be a perk, but at this point with the amount of occurrences that are happening, feeling safe at work is a perk. And while it shouldn't be, not every organization can boast that their nurses aren't assaulted and hurt or yelled at or whatever on a daily basis. So there are some pieces out there. We just talked to Melissa Cortez recently and released a podcast about her work on violence and protecting nurses. There's bills out there, HR1195 in front of the US legislature to potentially make it a felony for violence to occur against healthcare workers. But all this stuff seems to be paused or lagging. And meanwhile, almost every week, we see a headline with a clinician being assaulted in some way. How do we even begin to address that?

Bonnie:

It's multifaceted. It's absolutely insane to me that we have not passed this house bill 1195 to protect healthcare workers from violence the same way that we passed the bill years ago to protect airlines, crews and flight staff from violence. I mean there needs to be a federal bill. So if you're listening and you got a few minutes, please write your congresspeople and let's get that rolling.

The other thing is that I think we also have to call out bad behavior on patients. We have dealt with this forever and I'll tell you, even as a chief nursing officer, I have been called to go up and speak with patients and families about their behavior and yelling and threatening and screaming and we've done our best rendition of, "You really need to be nice," kind of conversations. But I think we need to not tolerate that. I think that needs to include up to the, "Hey, we might help you see the door and the way out here. It is absolutely unsafe and it's not okay for you to be here." So I think we have to change the way we have that conversation. If there were teeth in it, our staff would certainly perceive us differently as leaders in that we really did have their back and their best interest in mind.

Dan:

I just got a text earlier today from a colleague who linked to, I think it was Mass General, created a patient behavior guide or expectations. That's a start because at least the organization's stepping up and saying, "We're at least trying to have your back from a system perspective." I don't know why other organizations wouldn't do that.

Bonnie:

Yeah, I just read an article, I believe that it is MGH and there was something because there are now stickers I believe on their doors that say they will not tolerate abuse against any of their workers. And it's stated much more eloquently than that. But I think that is where we're going to have to go is that your behavior is not okay and it is not accepted here.

Dan:

Yeah. And I've heard the backroom talk on that as well, which is, "Oh if we put that out, patients are going to seek care at other places." Ultimately, I would be willing to take that risk as a healthcare leader to lose a patient that's going to punch my staff, the revenue off that thing in order to maintain a safe working environment. But maybe that's not always the equation. I don't know.

Bonnie:

Well and imagine the nurses you'll keep, right? I don't even see that as a trade off to be honest with you. It feels like a no-brainer. Of course, I'm not the one writing the paychecks, but it feels like a no-brainer.

Dan:

I facilitated a group at Marquette, this was the problem. They were learning some design thinking techniques and the problem we were trying to solve was violence in the emergency department and they were like, "How do we reduce it?" And I said, "Well from an innovation standpoint, look at the possibilities. What if your problem statement is how do you have zero violence in the emergency department? How could that possibly be?" And when we opened it up to that, there were some very interesting ideas. We were rapid brainstorming. So it wasn't to solve the problem, but when you open up that thinking to not reduce it, then you're making the assumption it's going to happen. But how can you completely eliminate it? There was everything from every nurse carries a taser to Ativan Mist as you walk into the ER, to more tangible things like how do you retrain security and nurses with situational awareness and some of these other things to prevent it. But I think we need more innovation in this space for sure.

Bonnie:

Absolutely. I think we have to look at things very, very different than we have in the past. And this is also going to require us to think about other industries that have solved this. Airports have solved it, right? Now, maybe yes, that all falls under that federal bill there. Are there different ways to do it? My brother is a hospital security guard and they carry arms, they carry guns and they go through extensive training on deescalation, communication, all kinds of stuff. But generally, he said, "A lot of these issues," and this is probably not a surprise, "But they're oftentimes are either child custody issues or they tend to be substance abuse of some sort involved." So if that's any telltale sign, that means we maybe have a sense of where these flareups are going to even come from, which means we potentially know in advance that we might be alerted to expect something. So, how do we create some a way to know when and how that might occur and then focus our resources on that to prevent it.

Dan:

Right. We have risk scores for every other thing in healthcare and there may be a risk score for violence against team members, but how do we put that front and center in triage? You score a certain piece because of past behavior or certain diagnoses or just behaviors that you're exhibiting in the moment and actually proactively get ahead of it. That was never something that we did in the ER when I was down there.

Bonnie:

Well look, it would be real easy to actually build a model like that with AI in predictive analytics. We can pull your name, it would search just like it searches our nursing licenses, but it would search on the bad guy's side of the house. Is this a name that pops up in any databases as a felon or somebody that's been arrested for violent crimes? Are there warrants out? Those kind of things. And then just give us a risk score number to say "Ding, ding, ding, we're alerting you to something here." And then how you process and develop mechanisms to handle that is up to each organization. But if we knew that, it feels like we would get on it in advance instead of waiting till the bad stuff happens.

Dan:

Yep, agreed. So we've talked about technology enablement, we've talked about staffing differently and thinking about the workforce differently, supporting nurses, eliminating violence. What else is on the list of contemporary nurse leaders skill sets? And these are all things that I don't think they teach in masters and DNP programs, but they should, the new essentials and things should have all this in there. But what are some of those other things that you're seeing that is really a requirement to do the job of nurse leader or healthcare leader in today's age?

Bonnie:

You know what? Here's one of the things that's made my radar screen lately, and that is you and I spend a lot of time in LinkedIn and it's our go-to platform to really influence outcomes in a positive way. I see lots and lots and lots of nurse leaders, CNEs, system level, organizational level directors, people that do not have a good profile in LinkedIn, which means it's difficult to get a sense of who they are and what they do. And why that's important is that the world likes to get a little bit of a heads up in terms of walking into any kind of a conversation, call, presentation conference, whatever it might be. So as your organization is hiring people, it's not uncommon to have a lot of this behind the scenes, what I'm going to say, intel gathering and lightweight research.

It would be great to see who the CNO of an organization is and what he or she has done. It'd be great to see the director that you might be working for and the work that he or she has done. I think that there's a good way to represent yourself as a professional, as a leader in LinkedIn. I do think it's a really healthy presence to have out there. It doesn't mean you have to spend as much time as you and I, but just to have a presence out there, then at least we can give nurses that are looking for jobs, leaders that are looking for new roles, at least give them a little sense of who we are as people.

Dan:

Yeah, agreed. And I think every single system level or C-suite nursing leadership position has an obligation to advance the profession. And if you do that, we want to hear about it. And so you got to get it out there. I think the days of you can work in your city or your little geographic area and just do work there, is still impactful, but we need to learn from each other and see what's going on. And there's so many great platforms out there. It is really interesting about the brands and the engagement online that our fellows have. I'm actually going to be facilitating a session in January with some experienced nurse leaders about how to build a brand. And I think the more we can get that skillset out, maybe we need to start a class, Bonnie, we need a masterclass on branding.

Bonnie:

There we go. I think we're on it, Dan. We've cracked that code. But it drives me nuts if a CNO or someone wants to reach out to me, and this happens to you I'm sure, all the time, but people will message me and I click on their profile and there's either no picture or there's a picture that looks like it's cut out with them on a family vacation or something. Just help us out by getting a sense of who you are as a professional and how we can help you. Unfortunately, I actually see it a lot. So I think we could help people with the branding because those first impressions are still very important. And even though the world has gotten bigger, in many ways it's gotten way smaller.

Dan:

Agreed. And I can't tell you how much value I've derived from LinkedIn. Almost on a daily basis, there's some conversation or opportunity that presents itself that if I wasn't on there, I would never know about. So I do think that's a good one to add on there.

Bonnie:

I know, how about it? We're the two top influencers in LinkedIn and it is the only platform that you can't monetize.

Dan:

I know and we're the heck are the rest of the nurses. I don't want to be the top LinkedIn, four years in a row. I want someone else to come in there and do it.

Bonnie:

I know. We need other nurses to get on board with that and take that over and begin to share not just rail on things but literally begin to provoke and share ideas and start conversation. That's the value. I absolutely will not follow people because I also like to spend a little time scrolling around Insta. I absolutely will not follow people and I encourage other nurses and leaders to do this. Don't follow the nurses that are on the booze cruises and making fun of other nurses or railing on patients and doing stuff, that's not professional. So I feel like there's a pretty big lane to skate down in the middle, but that's not it.

Dan:

Yeah, agreed. And follow the trends and things that you want to learn about and go to, not the stuff on the back end of it. And another piece of advice I got from James Simmons who's all over social as well was, he's like, "I don't follow healthcare people." He's like, "I follow the stuff I like as just a human," and so use it as an escape as well instead of always just on for work. But I think that's another good skill. So how do you build your branding, get your message out there because we have so many awesome leaders out there that just no one hears from them and you have to meet them at that one random conference in the corner at happy hour or whatever and you hear these stories of the work they're doing and I'm like, "Why isn't that out there? How can more people learn from you?" Because we're reinventing the wheel so much.

Bonnie:

100%. And you know what? Here's my theory on that, we got to stop talking to other nurses. So stop going to only nurse conferences talking to other nurses. Take your work, take your abstracts, take your research outside of nursing to share it, because that's where there's a lot of applicability and honestly there's a lot of interest in what we're doing and how it might apply in another industry or where there are similar issues.

Dan:

Yeah. And that analogous experience like you mentioned and that came up in that violence piece too, is how do you look at airports or sterile areas in other industries where they've been able to control for some of that stuff, and how do we learn from concepts and bring it into our world? I think healthcare remains very insular and if it's not built in healthcare, it's automatically disregarded. But we're past that time. There's a lot of industries that are way more advanced in healthcare.

Bonnie:

100%. And we need to do more of that. We need to build more relationships outside of healthcare. I think too where there's the opportunity to speak as part of a panel with people from other industries. There's some real value in different ways of thinking.

Dan:

I agree. All right. So we've covered a ton. We've covered a ton here and I'm just curious, so branding was the latest one. Any other things that pop into your head around what are those contemporary skills for the new nurse leader?

Bonnie:

We probably could go on for a really long time. I think we just really need to focus on how to make leaders successful and how to really help them with the work that they're so deeply committed to. How to help them be successful in their organizations and stay. Stay in nursing, stay as leaders and help us work through this state of chaos and disruption that we're currently in.

Dan:

Yeah. So Bonnie, you travel a lot, just like I do. I'm curious, what are some of those really innovative things that you're seeing out there? Is anyone really pushing the walls coming out of the pandemic with new ways of thinking or doing or leading or structuring their organization?

Bonnie:

Yeah. There are some things. So virtual, as we talked about, virtual nursing is really a thing and that's growing very crazy quickly. Also hospital at home, growing much faster on the east coast than in the middle or west of the country. But that is really catching on with a lot of opportunity. Certainly there are some challenges. You still have to be able to staff it in some way, shape or form. So nurses are not entirely out of that equation. It's interesting to me the technology that is being used to monitor patients at home and send it back to command centers that are literally parsing through data or using AI as a way to look at millions and millions of data pieces to just say, "Hey, this is something that somebody needs to pay attention to."

I was at a conference as a speaker two weeks ago and there was a company there, it's in [inaudible 00:29:44] biosigns and I was very impressed because they actually have a disposable. It's about the size of a silver dollar and it sticks to the patient's left shoulder area and it's a vital signs monitor and it Bluetooth sends it to the receivers that upload it in your EHR and you can do it, you can configure this in a couple of different ways.

You can have a command center that literally monitors all of this crazy minute by minute realtime stuff. But what it does is it begins to identify trends and patterns that start to fall outside the patient's norm. Almost like a control chart. And those are the things that you really should begin to watch for. So if you think about how much time could we free up if human beings no longer needed to take vital signs, what are the other things we would spend that time on?

You know the same robotics company I do, Diligent, they're scaling the heck out of Moxi. Moxi's popping up everywhere and Moxi offloads a lot of this low to no value added fetching and hunting and gathering work. Imagine how much time you can return back to the humans when you can take things like that away. So there is some really cool stuff out there and I think at the end of the day when you peel all of this stuff away that we don't need human beings to do, it does help us to focus on this stuff that we are needed to do and get closer and closer to that holy grail of practicing at the top of our license.

Dan:

Yeah. And this study's dated and we were redoing it at a previous organization and we were starting to get some pulmonary data that just supported that. It hadn't changed since 2009, but 36% of a nurse's day is hunting and gathering information and out of a 12-hour shift, that's three or four hours. So it just wasted non-value added task time that we need to fix. And you're not going to eliminate a nurse by making them more efficient. So you can't do that FTE business case, but you're going to make it so that they can do better patient care, intervene chart, get a break, do all the things that we just talked about today and actually have a sustainable workforce. And it's not that hard to stop people from running around screaming for help when you have the technology and tools to be able to enable that much better now.

Bonnie:

Absolutely. And anytime we start talking about measuring FTEs because we want to keep an eye on them, that always makes me nervous, right? Because the next step in that equation is usually, can we shave a few off? Nowadays we really should be looking at adding more FTEs but they are probably less costly labor people that we should add, right? We need more hands to help us, but they don't need to be the expensive hands. We just have to figure out how to put these care models together in such a way to do that.

Dan:

Yeah. And then I think that's that other pillar of contemporary leader is challenging the care model and really rethinking who does what work? And I've been trying to push nursing for a while. It's like we need to evolve our profession and maybe the evolution of our profession is we all become nurse practitioners, I don't know. But doing the disparate, everything that falls out that MDs and other groups don't do isn't going to work well for us very long because it's just not where nurses value is. So how do we really define what nursing work is and offload the other things to either technology or other members of the team and really build that interprofessional work instead of overlapping everything and not being intentional about who does what.

Bonnie:

Absolutely. And also, I would say, we can leverage a lot of systems thinking or complex adaptive systems here and really think about how do we put pieces together differently? How do we figure out where do we need to innovate? Where do we need to repackage? How do we shuffle around players or people? But we just have to think differently than almost all of us were trained to think and differently than we're accustomed to in order to even see our way through to the other side of this.

Dan:

Yeah. That is probably the epitome of the theme for today, which is, we got to think differently to get out of this. And I just finished writing a draft of a paper called Nursing's Paradigm Shifting Moment and we can't go backwards, the world is shifting, the work of healthcare is different and we can't rely on old solutions to solve those problems. So Bonnie, it's been awesome to have you on again. We went through a lot of different things around what healthcare needs and what healthcare leaders need to have in their tool belt in order to be successful. But what would you like to hand off? What's that one nugget you want to hand off to our audience?

Bonnie:

Leaders really need to think about being flexible, nimble, and agile.

Dan:

Perfect. Those are three skillset buckets that are a requirement in today's world. Bonnie, thanks so much for being on. We're both out there on LinkedIn all over the place, but where else can people find you?

Bonnie:

That's honestly the best place and if you message me from there, happy to jump offline and have a conversation. That's the safest way to catch me though.

Dan:

Awesome. Thanks Bonnie so much for being on the show. Let's keep pushing this industry forward because it sure as hell needs it.

Bonnie:

Sure does. Thanks Dan.

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