Dani:

Hi there, I'm Dr. Dani Bowie, and welcome to the Handoff. If you're new, the Handoff is a podcast for nurse leaders created by the team at Trusted Health. If you're a returning listener, welcome back. We're glad to have you. I'm the new host of the handout, and as I said, I'm Dr. Dani Bowie and I'm a Trusted Health Chief Nursing Officer. This season we're diving deep into the new reality of the post Covid nursing workforce. We have a great lineup of guests will be sharing their thoughts on key topics like safe staffing, what the future of nursing should look like, dynamic incentivization, and the use of external labor.

Dani:

Really excited today to talk with Daniel Hudson, a friend and a colleague, and someone that I've admired and watched his career over the last five to six years. So Daniel, welcome to the Handoff.

Daniel:

Yeah, Dani, thanks for having me. It's so good to be here and excited to talk about all the awesome things we're all doing here, embarrassing and for healthcare.

Dani:

Yeah, I wanna just jump right into it. I, you know, I've been watching healthcare news and announcements recently, and I've definitely seen some trending articles and publications around Jefferson, and particularly the SEAL team, which I've learned is a very innovative workforce approach that you've been leading. So I would love if you could share a bit more about the SEAL Team and an overview of the program and how you've launched it for Jefferson.

Daniel:

Yeah. The SEAL Team is, it's new, it launched in April of this past year. So we're not even at a year yet of, its at an inaugural launch. And people might be asking, well, what does, what does SEAL even stand for? And what that means is service excellence, advocacy, and leadership. So the nurses that we hire into this team exhibit all of those core characteristics and the work that they do and the care they provide across our entire clinical enterprise at Jefferson. For those that might not know, Jefferson Health is around 18 hospitals or organizations or healthcare entities across two states, Pennsylvania and New Jersey. And so this SEAL team, a lot of people like to use the word internal agency. I'm not as keen on that language, just because of the mindset that our core nurses have around agency nurses, which is something I think we need to shift the mindset altogether. So the, it's really the concept of having our flexible team that can go across all of our entities. And that's what the SEAL team is. As we launched it, we started small, we started with 25 nurse positions, and that's now grown to 35, and we have a plan to expand it to 150 by this June. So we are now rapidly scaling this team because of the impact we're seeing it have for our patients and for our communities here in Pennsylvania and in New Jersey.

Dani:

What are you seeing as the benefits for those nurses that are joining the SEAL team and what's attracting them to this type of work? If you've noticed any type of trends as you've been hiring and launching the program, and I love what the SEAL stands for, I'm, I'm, I think that that's amazing that you created the right type of principles associated with the work and calling out leadership and advocacy. I mean, those are amazing attributes that you know, of nursing in general. So I think it's a wonderful way to exemplify that and put it into the branding of your new program. But yeah, if you can just share a bit more about the benefits and the type of nurses that are joining the program.

Daniel:

The benefits that they get that I think that they really appreciate are the fact that we, we pay them significantly higher than the market does locally and regionally, so that we can get the flexibility that we need from a staffing perspective, and so that they can get the flexibility that they're desiring. And so let's break that down here real quick. What's the flexibility they desire? I think what we hear from them, and I'm gonna use a quote that I heard from one of our SEAL nurses at Jefferson, they said, it's like, I'm a travel nurse, but I have a home. And so I, I think, what do they get out of being on a team like this? They get a home. And so I've been a travel nurse, I've done that. I was a travel nurse for four years, and you're always worrying about the next contract or the next place you're gonna be and mm-hmm. <Affirmative>

And what you even sign that contract, you're questioning, well, I wonder what the team's gonna be like that I go work with. Or I wonder what the environment's gonna go what the environment's gonna be like. And so there's a lot of unknowns and you're living in those unknowns on a constant basis. And so what our team tells us is they get to get that flexibility of moving around, working in different parent environments, having creative scheduling, getting full benefits, and even doing work sharing types of situations. Lots of flexibility, but they have a home and they have something that they feel like they know the community that they're contributing to and caring for. When I think about a nurse and I think about service excellence and advocacy and leadership, right? That's who we are as nurses. And, and so how do we find that purpose and how do we really elevate that purpose inside of us? And, and I think that the SEAL team really does that for our nurses that are on the team.

Dani:

I really just enjoy, like, what I'm hearing is flexibility with stability. And I think your perspective of having a background in the nursing, you know, the nurse travel space and bringing to light some of the what could be challenging for people to deal with, which is the unknown of your next assignment, the team you're working with. So allowing for new experiences within an environment that's known is a pretty powerful approach. So thank you for sharing more about that and providing some context with your background as well.

Daniel:

Yeah, you're welcome. And you know, I didn't get to share, you know, what do we get, what's the flexibility we get as an organization and, and so we get to retain intellectual capital that is highly critical for us to keep right. In our organization, we we're, we're transitioning people that we know that they told us they were gonna leave the organization and they've come into these roles, right? We've retained their knowledge of the systems, of the people that they work with, the teams, right? And then on top of all of that, they are experts at how amazing we do things and how not amazing we do things. And, and they can share that perspective and they can contribute to our ability to become better and to evolve how we provide care for our patients. They bring a very unique perspective, and so we utilize them in that standpoint.

We also get the flexibility of having a good amount of people to move around 18 hospitals. And, and so how we do that, the flexibility and how we do that, we don't treat all of these resources like a 13 week traveler contract. We have a very hybrid approach where we're looking at staffing a week out and we deploy down into a specific region. And then once they hit that region, they can be deployed into different facilities. And so they know in advance, we're being proactive about our staffing. And, and so we get that proactive approach in our ability to assure a facility and a region that they're gonna get resources and they're not as challenged thinking about how they're gonna stop their units. Certainly we still have our challenges at Jefferson Health but this has certainly been a big part of helping us move in a direction where we're becoming more state.

Dani:

You know, as I'm listening to, I really appreciate the approach of boots on the ground doing the work and being able to also draw out the experience and the understanding of the frontline clinician to continue to aid in building, you know, your health system supporting innovation and transformation of the workforce of care delivery, whatever it may be. And so that's really powerful that you're able to have a workforce that's seen across your system and being able to provide some feedback. How else did you involve nurses in designing this program as you were building it and then launched it?

Daniel:

Yeah, well, I think a really unique component to envisioning this, this team was one of our ed nurses transitioned it to our role where they were kind of helping project manage, even building the team. And so just that, that perspective of one of our own who is a point of care nurse providing care in an emergency department of all places, that, I think that was integral in, in how we made decisions, how we developed guiding principles that would help us move forward when we get stuck on a decision. So that's one way was elevating our own, one of our own people to help build this. I would say another way is we're continually meeting with the SEAL nurses meeting with the professional development specialists that are at the local level, not at the corporate, enterprise level.

And we're saying, how could we be better? Where are we missing the lark? And we're thinking about the just do its versus the kibo's, like, that was a good idea, but let's put that away. But we're also thinking about the long term ideas that people have. And, and so we're really working through that rapid cycle improvement methodology on a consistent basis. And we're doing that with a feedback from our local team but also using experts who are really not on our roofing. So of course to help build it out cuz we're not done right. We have lots of really good ideas other than just building people. We're going through a major shift right now from operating from a five division model to a three region model to simplify how we think about deployment of these resources and to increase the amount of flexibility that we have with those resources.

We have ideas on how we could integrate virtual care and job sharing between virtual care and these skill nurses. And I'm so excited that we're about to launch our virtual care pilot across two states and our SEAL nurses who were dual licensed are gonna be the virtual nurses and then gonna provide feedback on that program and help us evolve that program. But then they can come back and work at the point of care, not in a virtual care setting. So when I think about flexibility and I think about the future for how nurses want, wanna have flexible schedules or flexible work environments mean envision a day where a nurse could work two shifts as a virtual nurse of one shift to the point of care in one week, and then flip that the next week. I mean that the options are endless.

Dani:

That's a really exciting model. I haven't heard of that before. I've heard, and I've worked with health systems with internal agency float pools, but the way that you're creating even within the flexible layer of your workforce, which is your SEAL team, and then you're changing the dynamic and then creating flexibility within their roles. What can you talk about in regards to the virtual program and as you're launching that pilot, what are your goals for that and maybe the early outcomes that you're wanting to see from the launching the pilot associated with virtual care?

Daniel:

We've talked to a lot of people who are involved in, you know, I'll use quotes, air quotes here, virtual care, <laugh>, virtual nursing, <laugh>. I think that means a lot of things to a lot of people, and I think a lot of systems are just getting into this concept. And I don't think that we have a true definition of what it means. I I certainly think we need a concept analysis that needs to be done on virtual nursing. We have so much work that needs to be done on what are the competencies, what's the definition, <laugh>. But with that said, we're jumping into it again, we're about to launch our pilot and it's just really exciting. And when I think about what are we trying to accomplish through this, I've said the whole time, this is really about at the get-go augmenting the care delivery model, not replacing it, not trying to say we're gonna have less staff.

It's really about augmenting and then learning from that experience. Things that we're looking at are how can we potentially have more effective, efficient admissions where we're engaged with the patients in a different way. How does that then drive our nursing care planning to be more effective? How can we be more effective when we think about educating our patients? And, and does that mean to be the point of care nurse, or can that be the virtual nurse? How can we think about discharges in a whole different way? How can we potentially think about hourly or every four hour rounding in a different way that the options are endless. And the question that I think we're all trying to answer is, what value is gonna be brought to the point of care nurse, the point of care, health team, and, and how can this contribute to that value?

And so, you know, KPIs, for example, that we're considering are around documentation time, reducing documentation time, reducing the amount of time that the nurse at the point of care is in the chart versus the virtual nurse so that they can spend more time with the patient. We also wanna kinda look at, does this have an impact on nurse retention or even other healthcare team retention, like patient care tech or a CNA, what impact does this maybe have on patient experience? You know, I, I saw a recent report on virtual nursing where a patient was quoted saying, that was the best care I've ever received. And so I've also heard, you know, statements, anecdotal statements, well, I wouldn't wanna talk to a virtual nurse and a person with a screen, right? And see, so we have two totally different experiences being articulated and so we've got to study this and we've gotta get the right research behind it and the right resources behind it. But I think the options are endless and it's a really good opportunity.

Dani:

I really like the point that you made about augmentation of care versus replacement. And I do believe that is a common misconception around virtual nursing particularly in the industry and even beyond it, that it's to replace reduce staffing. And so what I like hearing is that it's to elevate the role of the point of care nurse, the one delivering or touching the patient to move outside of what is very tedious and often a lot of time, which is charting and doing all of the, the charting elements that are associated with the care that needs to be done. And so I'm really excited to hear about your pilot and when you start to share the good news of the work that you've been doing at Jefferson and that transformation, your outcomes, it will really help the industry understand more. And so I just, I think that's really exciting. Now, as you think about the SEAL team, you think about virtual nursing, I would just love to understand from you your broader perspective around the workforce and how this is all playing a part into your workforce strategy at Jefferson. And if you can elaborate a bit more on that,

Daniel:

Having an integrated nursing workforce strategy is just so absolutely critical. And having that strategy being driven by data, you know, I've come from other organizations where there's a strategy but there's not good data supporting it. And so you're just moving forward with the strategy and like, what impact is it having? I would really encourage people to really think and be thoughtful about the data piece and integrating that, truly integrating that as KPIs into the strategy. And you know, when I think about our strategy, really to simplify it from a nursing workforce standpoint, at a really macro level, there's operations for nursing and there's clinical practice for nursing, right? So that's the simple two gigantic buckets. And then within those two gigantic buckets, there's three buckets. There's building your diverse teams, there's effectively and safely using those resources in your teams, and then there's investing in your teams so you can engage with them and hopefully retain them within your system.

And so within those three buckets at Jeffersonwe've got a lot coming on and we're measuring it all. And it's just really exciting time at Jefferson when we think about the diverse teams and building those diverse teams. Of course, it's some of the same things a lot of other people are doing around engaging new to practice nurses around offering them jobs way before they graduate, having nurse externships jobs for them so that they're working with us, it's part of their clinicals. And then you transition them into their new to practice roles. Of course, we're engaged in trying to build an international nursing program and even thinking about how do we engage with these international nursing program companies where you've got international nurses who initially started in an organization but it wasn't the right fit or it wasn't the right location. And so they're now looking, well, where am I gonna go?

What am I gonna do? There's a big pool of them out there, and so how do we engage them and maybe even help put them through school so that we can engage them as a worker that's a more sustainable, inter intermediate type of bridge to maybe being a full-time employee. And then we've got the perioperative area, right? I don't, I'm not so sure everybody focuses in on that as a nursing strategy, but for us at Jefferson, it is, and we're doing some really neat things right now. We've developed a program for surgical techs where we've partnered with an external company and they're providing the didactic training required for certification. We're providing the clinical hours, almost like an apprenticeship situation. And then once they're done and they're certified, they're already operating in their role as a surge tech, yet we've paid them while they're going through their apprenticeship and getting their clinical hours.

So we launched that at one of our academic medical centers and it's been successful. So we're in the moments now of scaling that to the entire enterprise across all of our regions. We're hoping to get upwards of 50 or 60 surgical text trade. We're, and that's a really barred role <laugh> to recruit for right now. So those are just some examples of how do you build the diverse pipelines. So when we talk about that middle bucket, we effectively using your resources safely, of course, that's where our SEAL team lands and all of our flexible resources and resource management centers or other people might refer to them as staffing offices spurred for your individual entity or your enterprise. But that's also where Virgil Nursing lands, right? And alternative care models in experimenting with different types of roles in your care models.

So that's that big bucket. And then you've got the third bucket, which I believe is maybe one of the most important buckets right now, which is investing in your people. There's a lot of investing going on right now, a lot of incentive shifts and people raising the hourly rates. And I'm not saying that's right or wrong, I would just encourage and people to really think about what's the right place to invest, just like you would think about for your own retirement for the long term, what's the right place to invest? And so only one would know that for their environment and for their organization. But we're doing a significant amount of work in that arena if it's around incentive shifts or short-term incentive shifts or of course retention types of efforts. That's huge. Lots of role harmonization. And see, here's the deal, if you've got 50 different types of RNs in your organization, but you wanna have one RN that's moving across all of those places, how do they know what their accountabilities are?

How do they know what's expected of them? Why it's so important to build the foundation and get your role harmony in place? So that's that last bucket. So some other pieces, just real quick on that bucket, of course, clinical ladders, right? That's a retention mechanism that a lot of people have been working on. We've began launching our enterprise clinical ladder, so proud of this. And then the last piece I'll say there is how do we give our nurses the resources they need when they wanna be engaged? And so a great example of that at Jefferson is our nurse scientist program that we have been evolving and we launched more recently relaunched a new version of it. And so that gives our nurses who wanna get involved in research the resources that they need, which engages them. So those are some just examples, Dannithe buckets and how we think about it at Jefferson simplified, of course, there's so much underneath that you, you opened up those buckets and they go three miles deep.

Dani:

I really appreciate your explanation around workforce strategy, how it's, you know, how you've kind of categorized it. And many of the listeners know, you know it, that it's, this is complex and there's lots of different layers and approaches to bring this into the harmony, as you mentioned, of delivering care to the patients as well as protecting and building into your human capital and that intellectual capital that's so important for delivery of care. Just one last question around that. As you talk about data and driving your workforce strategies with that, is there anything that you could give our listeners around some just, you know, things to think about that would be important metrics as you think about a workforce strategy that you typically look at to ensure that you know, am I on the right path and allow you the opportunity for adjustment with the guidance of data?

Daniel:

There's always a lot of data. The question really becomes what is that data doing for you? What questions are you trying to answer? And I I've never forgot that that's the question you should always go back to. What problem am I trying to solve or what question am I trying to ask and get answered here? And when I think about the nursing workforce, and I think about those questions in particular, I think about those three buckets. If I'm building a diverse team and diverse pipelines, what data's gonna show the impact of that work? So for example, I think that DEI and diversity data is what you should be looking at in building your diverse pipelines, right? And solooking at your, your distribution of ethnicity, bi role is a really good example of that. And again, i I want to emphasize that nursing is not just about registered nurses, it is about building diversity and diverse pipelines of all the people that support our nurses, EMTs, certified nursing assistants, other types of technicians, sterile processing technicians.

You've gotta look at that. The diversity of all of those different types of roles in international nursing is another way to look at that, right? Another way to build that, I'd say that when you move into that, that middle bucket, of course you wanna look at your first year retention rates for your needle practice nurses, if that's at a high percentage rate, what's driving that? Why are the people that we're investing in not staying in their, their jobs for a year or less? And there's some great benchmarks to kind of give you an idea on what that should look like. And then when you move into the middle bucket, one of the ones we're really evolving right now is looking at our percent of flexible nurses to core nurses. So trying to simplify it, you've got how many different layers of of resource float teams and specialty teams we're just combining it all into two big buckets, core staff and flexible staff.

And before Covid, there was a lot of literature out there would say, Hey, let's be at five or 7% of your flexibility of staff. And clearly we need to shift that mindset and that thinking now. So we're looking at upwards of 20% flexible staff. And so that, that's an area that I think if I was gonna measure something, I would really focus in and hone in on that. When we think about effectively using our teams, and of course when you get to that middle bucket as well, you wanna look at your vacancy rates. Like let, let's not, you've got your standards here, but the thing about vacancy that's really interesting is sometimes that's not gonna really tell you the truth because you can manipulate that yourself based off how many positions that you decide you want to be a part of that or not be a part of that.

So you just have to be thoughtful and careful when you think about these KPIs. And then I would say when you think about the tail end and the last bucket, of course you wanna look of retention, but a new evolving measure that I think we need to understand it a little bit more and get the right tools to measure it effectively is intent to leave. And, and so how do we start looking at and proactively managing turnover by managing intent to leave. So that's something we're trying to think through and evolve a little bit more at Jefferson. And again, those are just a couplethere's tons of measures out there that, that you could be looking at for workforce.

Dani:

Yeah, well, simplifying it is what's important and holding to, I think defining your metrics, making sure you have common language around it and then allowing time to help drive your strategy with those metrics is key. I really appreciate and hearing how Jefferson is thinking about the composition of their workforce and designing flexibility and shifting the model or the composition. Cuz I would agree, I've typically seen health systems where if you have a low flexible workforce layer, for instance, anywhere from, you know, four to 5%, the dependency on external labor is quite high. And so the ability to really respond to your demands and census, et cetera is quite challenging. So that's exciting. And you know, I could talk to you all day around how and you're driving that strategy around flexibility beyond the seal and using that team to really aid in supporting your health system. But what I wanna do Daniel, is you know, we've talked a lot about the workforce and your workforce strategies, how you're bringing it together, leading enterprise change. From your perspective as a nurse and a nurse leader, you know, what does flexibility mean to you both as the leader leading this enterprise change and system as well as the frontline nurses that you're serving?

Daniel:

That is the million dollar question right now, is it not? Yes. I asked that question to other people so I don't know why you're allowed to ask me that question <laugh>, but let, let me share a little bit of my thoughts on that. My first thought is, and we're doing this at Jefferson where we're currently planning it right now and we're engaging with the Jefferson School of Nursing and one of their programs and the students to try to figure out how to get this accomplished. We wanna do a concept analysis on flexibility or at least start with a systematic review. Cuz quite honestly, it's a buzzword that I don't think anybody knows what it even means. <Laugh>. The, my second thought on on flexibility is I truly believe it is a very individual based definition. I think it means something different to every single person.

And that is the challenge and that is why I don't think that we've fully been able to see the benefits of creating flexibility in our systems. Now certainly I think we can draw some high level understanding of flexibility and to me, when I think about it as a leader, I think about how do I have people and resources that can be moved around and be agile but when we need it so that we have the right care at the right time for the right situation. And so that's, how do we do that, right? We do it by different levels of types of resources that we have that we can move around. We do it by being creative in how we schedule those resources and having different types of shifts that are available for people that are, again, that's flexibility for them, but that's also flexibility for us, right?

Having a nine to nine shifts really gonna help us because of the way that our churn works with the nurses. Now how does flexibility look to a nurse at the point of care? I can't personally answer that question cuz I haven't been a nurse at the point of care for about a decade. But I do go round and I go see and I go talk to those nurses and I talk to our seal nurses and here's where it gets really individual, right? One nurse will say, I don't want any benefits at all. They're 24 years old and they're on their parents' insurance plan and they could care less <laugh>. They don't mean that in a bad way. It's good for them though I wouldn't care either if I was 24 years old. And so how do we have the, the the type of benefit packages that are flexible?

Cause I'll tell you anybody working in healthcare will tell you there's not flexible benefit packages. Have we figured that out or Jefferson? No, we have not. I think, I think we have really good benefit packages, but I don't know if we have flexible benefit packages. You go ask another nurse who's maybe more towards their thirties just hypothetically here and they might say something like, I really need childcare and I need to work on these days cuz I'm in school too. So how do we create that type of flexibility in the system to engage somebody who can help us? Cuz we all know we need more people and we don't need the ones we have to leave <laugh>. So that's just another example. And I think that's something we hear from our SEAL nurses consistently. We like working in different care environments. They like moving around. They do not wanna be in one place all the time. And so I think how, again, the SEAL team helps us do that and how we even utilize the SEAL team helps us be able to move them across different care environments and different specialties and give them a home to be able to do that. Those are just a couple examples that, that I've heard of and I've, I've thought about as a leader, but I know it's not all,

Dani:

Well, you know, you hit the nail on the head when you said, well that's the million dollar question that everyone's asking. And I would agree it's something that has been top of mind for me in my career over the years as I've looked at the workforce led the workforce, I've looked at the literature and that's why we're having these conversations because I wanna know, you know, what are leaders seeing in hearing around the terms of flexibility, also going out to the workforce, the front lines and understanding what does flexibility mean to them. And I would agree there is individualization around it. I was on a think tank at the beginning of last year where we, we were working towards, you know, looking at the workforce, a staffing crisis. And one of the groups put together compensation and recommending flexibility around the plans because we realized that the life journey dictates what the flexibility needs to be and each nurse is on a different journey for their life. So I really appreciate you sharing what you've heard from your frontline, what you are leading with and leading into for flexibility and excited to learn what Jefferson learns as you really tackle flexibility and continue to press the limits and innovate in this space. You know, I wanna end the question, this is how we always end it for all of our listeners, but what would you like to hand off to our listers today? You know, that one nugget of of truth for those in healthcare or supporters of healthcare?

Daniel:

Take care of yourself and know how to do that. And when I think about my key priorities and I put these in order for a reason, I have four, I might have taken some of this construct from the Center for creative learning. So I need to give them credit <laugh>. These are my four in order, myself and my spiritual journey, my family, my profession, and the community I'm living in and serving. I put those in order for a reason. Cuz if I can't take care of myself, I certainly can't take care of my family. And then if I can't take care of my family, I certainly can't be good at what I do as a profession. If I can't do all those three, I certainly can't be serving my community. And so really encourage people to think about those buckets. And if you're not a spiritual person, that's okay.

Mindfulness, right? That's okay. But do something, journal, exercise, right back to the center for creative learning, build resilience, mental resilience, social resilience, right? There's different types of resilience, physical resilience that take the time and be intentional because what we've lost in healthcare is our purpose and we've lost our ability to focus on our purpose and remember our purpose. And I know people are tired of hearing the word resilience. I've heard that feedback personally. Like, don't tell me I'm not resilient. Look what I've been through and I get it. I fully understand a statement like that. But I would say, and how do we get back to our best selves? And I think the way to do that is to really focusing on those four buckets, starting with yourself. And you gotta get to that fourth bucket, right? And I heard this the other day and I was like, wow, is that true?

And I googled it and it was, there was some truth to it when somebody who's depressed, one of the first things they'll be told to do is go do something for somebody else. Go serve, go help out at a homeless shelter because there's joy that will be found in serving others. And so that, that would be my, my handoff. And I know that that's not so much about workforce strategy or even the clinical side of how we care for people, but I think in order to truly care for people, we have to take care of ourselves. We have to know who we are and then that will build those other four buckets. And it also is gonna help with all the mental and the mental challenges people are having. And there's just a lot of darkness around Dani.

Dani:

Yeah.

Daniel:

And we hear stories about it, right? All the time, even at Jefferson, we've had some very tragic things happen. So that's why I focus on that as a handoff and an encouragement to people.

Dani:

Yeah, I really respect and appreciate that and it's a good way to even center myself of hearing of, you know, looking at yourself and caring for yourself and building into that reserve and capacity. So then you can extend yourself to your priorities such as family, community, the patients you serve, faith, whatever that may be for our listeners. So Daniel, thank you so much for centering us back on, you know, the meaning of what we do and helping listenerstap into their purpose and giving us some insight into workforce strategy and some innovative programs at Jefferson Health. Thank you for joining the handoff and giving such insight to our listeners today,

Daniel:

Dani, it's been a pleasure. It's humbling to be able to have this conversation with you and look forward to another opportunity to talk with you in the future.

Dani:

Yep. We'll talk again, flexibility and the expansion of all these pilots and programs you're doing. So. All right. Thank you Daniel.

Daniel:

Yeah, thank you too.

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